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Hi, welcome to Tractor & Construction Plant Wiki!

David Brown 770 Selectamatic

Welcome

Thanks for your edit to the Massey-Harris 101 page.

There's plenty of information to add to the project, so I hope you'll stay with us and help make many more improvements.

The aim is to gather information on every make and model of Tractor, Construction Plant machine, Steam tractor and Truck built, as well as related material and list every example in preservation both in the UK and world wide.

Details of Museums, Clubs and Private collections of preserved vintage and classic machinery is also very welcome. The site covers all makes of machinery, so if its missing add it please !

Recent changes is a great first stop, because you can see what pages other people have been editing, and where you can help.
Questions? You can ask at the Help desk or on the "discussion" page associated with each article.
Need help? The Community Portal has an outline of the site, and pages to help you learn how to edit.
Please sign in every time you edit, so that we (and others) can credit your contributions to you !

We're really happy to have you here, and look forward to working with you!

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- BulldozerD11 (Talk) 22:30, 9 April 2010

Re:Case Edit

Your message copied here from my talk page for reply;


BulldozerD11 you have done an amazing job with the tractor wikia, finding and organizing a huge amount of information. I just discovered it a few days ago and am new to the editing procedures. Yesterday I tried to edit the Case article (anonymously, because I had not yet registered). The article had something about the first Case diesel being in the mid-30s. I thought it was referring to the McCormick-Deering WD40, not a Case. I see you have since added information about the 1953 Case 500 and the older LAH. I believe the agricultural LAH and industrial LAIH were built from 1942-45, not 1933, and they were based on the LA, not the L. Also I think the "Hasselman"-type engine is really Hesselman. It was a low-compression, spark-ignited, diesel that we usually call a semi-diesel in the US. I'm not aware of any Case crawler built in 1928. The Trackson Company (I think) made a tracked conversion of the Case C and sold it as the CD through Case dealers from about 1931-37, but I don't think it was a cataloged Case model.

Most of this information comes from: Letourneau, Peter (1993). Case Tractor Buyer's Guide. Motorbooks International, Osceola, Wisconsin.


I have a lot of info and photos of American tractors. I will try to add and edit as I find the time.


Ed Roberts - Edrob 23:56, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
H Ed thanks for the compliment.
Re WD-40 after you removed it I cheched the book i have on Case, and updated the section. The original of the pages was based on a Wikipedia Article, so I thought that the WD-40 may have been a maliouse addition in that that i had missed (in the UK we have a oil product called WD-40). I looked through the model listing in the Case book i have and that gave the engine as Hasselman in servalplaces, (but it could be wrong, as typos occure). The Book is not clear on the desiesl other than saying 1933, so a semi diesel would be probable. The Model L apeared to be listed on 2 dates, but the later ones are listed under L series, as you say in the 1940's.
The cCase / Tracson model sounds highly probable to me, so if you have it listed in a book, you can add a reference for it by using ref tags <ref>add book title, author and page no and ISBN no</ref> This will then add an entry in the References section. e.g.[1]
==References / Sources==
  1. Letourneau, Peter (1993). Case Tractor Buyer's Guide. Motorbooks International, Osceola, Wisconsin. ISBN 1234-567-89


The new GUI interface may have a button to add refs and other 'code' bits that control display of the pages.
If you think somthing may be wrong add this 'tag' {{check}} which gives [Entry need details checking] and adds it to a category listing pages with similar pages that may be wrong.
Dont worry about making a mistake as all page versions are retained in the history. The Wiki needs more tractor fans who are experts or just enthusiastic on a particular make or models to expand the basic pages and add missing models with more detail. Each model can have a page of its own if more info available than can fit on one line or a table of model numbers. Every model could do with at least one photo.
I've being trying to build the basics for others to build on, but have spread rather wide than just tractors. I have a Thousands of pfotos to add but no time so if you can expand any articles that would be great. Dont wory about formatting and the code bits etc, you pick it up bit by bit, im still learning after a couple of years.
-BulldozerD11 01:29, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re:tractor infobox problem Edit

Hi Edrob I will have a look at it in next few days, as I've been off line for a bit. - BulldozerD11 23:56, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Edrob I've looked at AGCO DT205B Legacy Edition were you also left a comment on the problem and have added some infobox templates to the talkpage. try editing the bottom one which is populated with dummy data. Replace the A, B, C etc with other info such as numbers to represent real data & save it.
I think its the RTE editor that Wikia added to (supposedly) make it easier for new users to edit that is at fault as older established users dont use it preferring to type wiki markup code directly (its quicker to them than moving the mouse and selecting from menus etc) and other users have reported problems with complex templates on other wikis. There is an option to turn it (the RTE) off in your preferences. The RTE is designed to hide the markup code from users, so with it off in edit mode you see lots of other characters, which format the text and make up the templates such as == some text == for headings, [[some text]] for links, {{Infobox}} to call a template etc once you know what they do they are easy to understand. The opinion of a 'older' editors is that it is actual a backward step as it slows down the 'learning' by new editors and often messes up pages. Editors with a back ground of editing wikipedia are used to wiki mark up code so find it easier to edit the 'old' way.
- BulldozerD11 21:53, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
Reply to the message from my user page below copied here for continuity, as it follows on from message above.
Hi BulldozerD11. I last did programming in the days of BASIC and dBase so I'm finding the wiki code very confusing. The Template: Infobox Heavytruck was not something I intended to use. It was just a place to experiment with infoboxes and try to find something that worked. I'm doing that now with a test article, not a template. Whether I insert the tractor infobox template or copy the code to an article, it doesn't work. When I copy the code from a working infobox such as the one in AGCO DT275B, then it works in my article and I can change the data. But I have no way to add new items such as valve arrangement (L-head, ohv, T-head, etc. Even with the rich text turned off, I see only a list of parameters with data, not the actual code like in the template. By the way, would the fuel type row make more sense up with the engine characteristics instead of near the bottom. The truck infobox seems to work if I copy the code into my article and then change the data. In this case I see the code so I can add additional rows for items important in American heavy trucks, such as chassis weight, list price, GCW rating (for tractor/trailer rigs), and component specs like: Timken SQ100 hypoid dual-drive tandem rear axle, 40000 lb capacity or Coleman driven front axle, 21000 lb capacity.Edrob 23:12, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
Hi Ed my basic coding was very basic & i gave up with data bases. I'll move the Infobox heavytruck to your user space. (i've got loads of half built templates in mine for experimenting with). The easiest way is as you are doing adapt an existing template in stages to see how it works. Like most programing there is more than one way of doing a similar thing. What is slightly confusing is that the code placed in an artcle is not tha 'actual' template code (that is only visible in edit mode & in some cases is in a sub template. The version of infobox you creates works slightly differently from the internal code in tractor infobox.

This is part of the actual code from {{Infobox brand}}, which uses the stock template {{infobox}} to do most of the work.

{{ infobox
| bodyclass = vcard
| title     = {{{name|<includeonly>{{PAGENAME}}</includeonly>}}}
| above     = {{#if:{{{logo|}}}|{{{logo}}}}}
| image     = {{{image|}}}
| caption   = {{{caption|}}}

| label1    = Type
| data1     = {{{type|}}}
| label2    = Current owner
| data2     = {{{currentowner|}}}
}}

The brand infobox is 'used' on a page by adding;

{{ infobox brand
| logo                   =
| name                   =
| image                  =
| type                   =
| currentowner           =
}}

logo= passes an image to the {{{logo}}} item in the template, which 'if' it (the image) exists is displayed in the above section of Infobox.

name = passes am alternative name to be displayed as the title. It defaults to the articles PAGENAME (PAGENAME is a special 'function')

image = passes a photo to the image item in infobox

type = passes data to the data1 item via {{{type}}} parameter (variable)

currentowner = passes the data to data2 item via the {{{currentowner}}}

Note in edit mode you will see some <nowiki></nowiki> codes these make code items show on screen and not act as code.

A lot of the templates are 'recycled' from wikipedia for compatibility with imported articles (and its easier than building them from scratch). Or adapted from something on another wikia site that looked similar to what i required. I tried to automate page creation but most of the attempts are incomplete. creating the base page to be versatile enougth is the issue (as with any programe design).

If you list the Items to add on the talk page of the template i can add them. You can see the changes made by looking at the History of the templates page afterwards.

The Help at wikipedia - Wikipedia:help:infobox may be a bit clearer than wikias help. and wikipedia:template:infobox. (which tractorwiki uses instead of wikia's version) Your Infobox truck appears to be based on this 'core code' or 'meta template' but it is far simpler to use the method of just calling infobox from the custom infobox. by using the method used in template brand shown above to use obvious named parameters to then pass the items to that datax & lablex that make up each row.

What you see in articles in edit mode is 'wikicode' or 'wikimarkup' which is actually a more user-friendly version of HTML markup. The templates can contain both in some cases, and some also use Java script that is in a system file and css which is used to style the boxes and tables (if you see items class= within the template this relates to the styling). Thats about the limit of my understanding of it, i just copied the bits needed from wikipedia to make the templates work.

Dont know if this helps or you may be more confused than ever now. (sorry it took abit to create a reply) - BulldozerD11 01:20, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

New articles Edit

Like the new articles on several defunct tractor manufacturers you added with photos/illustrations.

To add (new) pages to a category such as Category:Defunct Tractor manufacturers just click the button at the bottom of the article (page) you wish to add to a category and start typing the tittle of the category, it should then offer similar named categories, select the right one and click return, add any other relevant categories i.e Category:Companies founded in 1918, Category:1921 disestablishments etc and then click save. Categories that have a 'definition' will show up Blue and undefined ones as a red link. (When a category title has been used on several pages it is offered as an option even if not defined). Category lists are populated automatically by these links on the article pages, editing the category page just allows the addition of the 'definition' text and any categories that the category is itself a member of can be added to it manually. The pages that a category is a sub category of are at the bottom. These can be added manually using the code [[Category:xyz]] were xyz = the category title in edit mode below the definition or by the 'add' category button. Categories are 'index' lists & pages (articles) can be in multiple categories, in a tree structure. As levels get too large new sub categories are created to split it up more - see help:category for more info.

- BulldozerD11 19:46, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Heavytruck Edit

Hi Edrob I see you have started a new Infobox {{Infobox Heavytruck}}, I've added a closing pair of }} as the last data row template was 'open' & added a {{Documentation}} template link which embeds (transcludes) a std Doc sub page in the template page (this is a seperate page that appears on the template page, which you edit via the edit link at the top right of the green section. The examples will need rewriting to suit the parameters used in your version {{{parameter}}} has a item |parameter= in the usage section and the examples.

Note changing items in existing templates changes them in every page the template is used on. That is why some pages have templates with a item such as "Fuel type" {{{fuel}}} visible as the orginal template did not have an item for fuel and it has been added (these are often set to blank if not used, but to make updating existing pages easier a lot of the templates have not been set to do that when when items are added so that the missing items can be added to the pages (articles) with the templates in when editing them later.

Page layout notes Edit

Thinking about it the 'Tractor Infobox' is probably better suited to the post WW One models and as the very early manufactures articles are a mix of a company history and just a couple of models in most cases so the model info is fine presented as a brief specification list on the same page as you have done already rather than as seperate articles as we are doing with the modern models. The pages just need a See also, References /sources and External links sections adding to give a more uniform layout. (this acts as a 'placeholder' for others to add if as well in a common structure).

The 'Refs' section should list any books, magazines or other sources of the info in the article. The 'See also' general has a link(s) to related list articles, e.g. Tractor Manufacturers and/or List of Types of Agricultural Machinery. The 'External links' (EL's) can contain a web link to the manufacturers page (modern makes), a fan site (for older makes) or similar sites with information or photos on the make / model featured on the page.

Below the EL's is usually placed one or more 'Navboxes' (a template containing a list of related articles) these may be manufacturers, all the models by the same maker, related companies, or a red 'Template:xyz range' where a navbox template for the manufactures model range has not been created yet, but it is put in place ready, as when created it will then appear without having to go back and add it to every page for that manufacturers models.

Future expansionEdit

Its good to get articles from editors in another country, to widen the coverage, as there are hundreds more makes to add and thousands of models, just of the early stuff that i've never heard of. So if you visit any of the old iron forums please give a discrete 'plug' for the site to get more editors interested. The books and info I have tend to feature European makes and the big American makes mainly. One problem i found is that as i've gone round shows and museums i've found so much other machinery to add that is related in some way.

Keep up the good work, it can be frustrating at times trying to get some of the wikicode to work (i learn a lot of it from editing wikipedia initially), but then started this site after seeing too many the arguments about whether things were notable enough or not for inclusion in that encyclopaedia, especially arguments about companies that no longer exist but some editors claiming the articles wer adverts. There are a lot of sites for niche interst groups but I wanted to create a more wide ranging open web site like wikipedia of related material as the museums and shows cover such a wide variety of machinery and the companies were often involved in a whole range of products during there life.

Please add details of any museums, shows and events, private collects etc related to classic tractors, vehicles, construction plant and agricultural machinery etc that you have info on. Please add any suggestions to improve the sites layout or look or ask just 'why' something is like it is if you think it 'odd' or wrong' - Enough of my rambling comments for now - BulldozerD11 14:02, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Infobox Truck Edit

Hi Ed looking at it again I'd missed the note at the top tha says its under development. It is not actually used in any artcles (4 have a link to it but they were wikipedia articles with a similar named template in originally that was generally not suitable for 'my' usage). I've added the missing front end. But the content (headings, lables and data rows) needs more development. you are part way to creating a new template with how yoe are currently usng the infobox core template, just you are creating a new set of headings each time u use it in an article, as you are adding the lables & dat directly each time. The customised template is built with a std set of headings and then just teh data is pased to it by the list of items "|enginemake = " which feeds to the {{{enginemake}}} within the templates on one of the data rows.

Perhaps if i had used the term Variable instead of Parameter it would be clearer. have a look at {{Infobox Automobile}} for another similar template. (that is a straight copy from wikipedia & used in their vehicle articles).

If you list any more items and heading that you think should be in the truck one we should soon get a more complete version working. The tractor one has been extended many times and has a couple of faults were I tried to use advanced logic to show if it is discontinued (in some cases it appears twice, as it is displayed if a discontinued date is set and if current model is set to no) it needs a OR logic check adding in the 'If' statement.

Keep adding the new companies & models as we can go back and add / fix the infoboxs once the template is fixed. - BulldozerD11 13:37, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

CategoriesEdit

when you edit the category page directly you are creating a link back to the article, not adding the article to the category. that 'space' is for the category description & to add any category links that that page is a 'sub' category of. Categories have a category prefix (like templates) as they are in a seperate 'section' of the database structure. these arears are known as 'namespaces' & have sightly different properties from the main article space. - see help:namespace

Categories are added to the articles either by the button at the bottom or directly by wikicode (markup) within the article - add [[Category:category name]] at the bottom of the text, when previewed it then disappears and reappears as the category bar in the footer of the page. - see help:categories

- BulldozerD11 13:37, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

re:new articles Edit

Hi Ed the two new articles A.I.C. and Abbott-Downing have no useful content ? (is this a problem with the system, as i've had problems saving items today with cliches on the server !). Ive just deleted a similar blank article from an IP editor Hanomag K5B which was the same just placeholder text & image box. Anonymous IP's editors often create empty articles using that useless template page wikia have added for creating new pages. - BulldozerD11 21:59, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I will add content to the pages A.I.C. Abbott-Downing, etc. I created those blank at first to experiment with what you said about categories, etc.

No problem, Just i normally delete them (empty pages) as i find going to a page with 'no' info frustrating. But I though id ask incase you had had problems or were just creating them for latter use. (I could get the page count up by creating loads of them but its more pages to manage, (and you have seen th problem with categories & forgetting what exists) that is why there are alot of tables (on manufacturers pages) with red links in waiting for pages when i have more data & photos to add or get round to it).

By the way, how do you get rid of a page created by accident (mispelling, etc.)?

They can be moved for misspelling (by any user) or if totally useless deleted by an Admin (me). You can flag pages for deletion by adding the template {{delete}} (give a brief reason in the edit summary box). The manufactures pages are best created under a 'full name' with the initials created as a redirect to it as they may be used by several items. Convention is not to use Ltd, Plc, LLC, Pty etc unless the name is made of words that 'common' and would be ambiguous. e.g Four Wheel Traction Ltd.

I'm confused about categories. I have a lot of info on antique American trucks but I don't know where it should go. A search for "List of Truck Manufacturers" redirects to "Commercial Vehicles" but the bottom of that page has "Truck Manufacturers" and "List of Truck Manufacturers". Besides "North & South American Trucks" on "Commercial Vehicles" there is the category "American Manufacturers" on "Truck Manufacturers", "North America" on "List of Truck Manufacturers", plus "List of American Truck Manufacturers". All these lists are different. Is there no single definitive list? Apparently "List of American Truck Manufacturers" and "List of Truck manufacturers" aren't official categories.

Categories are a bit of a mess (for several reasons) - a) the auto suggest does not always work, b)articles from wikipedia have alsorts of categories, c)I've not defined some so they show as red, D)As the site has expanded some new sub categories have been created to split up better when there were only a few pages they initially tended to go in one high level one. So pick the best one and the others can be moved to it. Category:American truck manufacturers would be a sub cat to Category:Truck manufacturers, which is a sub category to Category:Manufacturers

If I add A&R (for example) to the category "Truck Manufactures", how does it get into the subcategory "American Manufacturers".

It done the other way round add the category "American truck manufacturers" to the page with the add button on the article page. Or type [[Category:American truck manufacturers]] within the article.
Lists, it is similar problem as the structure has got a bit confused. In some cases i've moved them about. There are effectively 2 lists with the blue navbox template {{Truck manufacturers}} at the bottom of the pages & the List of Truck manufacturers or Commercial vehicles placed in the see also section. Originally it starting as the main brands only. The lists can be merged or become a sub page linked from the more General list. (BTW the "list of" pages are not categories) In the smaller make articles use the List of American truck manufacturers as that should become the main on for US makes.

Next subject: My latest version of a truck infobox is at {{Infobox Heavytruck}} (which doesn't actually function as a templete) with dummy data. It is also used for the pages A&R and A.B.C. I moved the capacity (tons, GVW) to the model description near the top. I don't see why such an important part of model identification should be sort of an afterthought at the bottom. I also added more detail about engines, transmission, and axles. I'm finding it easy enough to copy this format to each new page and then change the data.

I'll check out your revised version Ed - Deciding the 'hierarchy' of the info was why development stopped originally as i was concentrating on developing the tractor version& i had few pages to use it on. I was trying to develop some templates that create blank pages with the template 'input' list pre loaded. Template:Create steam

I'm pretty satisfied with the tractor infobox as is except for it printing "discontinued" twice for model status. I assume somebody who knows how will fix that.

I'll fix it when i work out how to ;) - I have spells of trying to build templates and at other times add pages or tidy up categories etc. I get writers block for new articles at times. But i have so many photos to upload from events I get RSI adding the tables of repetitive data.

Now I will check out what you suggested about namespace. - Edrob 23:10, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

My Replies indented and placed after relevent section - BulldozerD11 00:23, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

Update on lists Edit

Hi Ed looking at some of the 'many' lists you have highlighted to me, i see that some of them are what i have recently imported from wikipedia (probably to clear up a load of redlinks, listed in the system generated special:WantedPages list). The Commercial vehicles page is probably best migrating into a overview article ith short lists of significant brands/ models and the List of Truck manufacturers & the sub list List of American truck manufacturers, being the main focus for the listing of manufacturers and brands. I was experimenting with moving the data into a table to allow sorting by other criteria than ABC by make but one huge table is also hard to edit ! Its also a case of how much additional data to add as company merges, name changes, splits, brands etc get so inter connected. - BulldozerD11 00:49, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

Duplicate 'new articles' Edit

Hi Ed I see you creates several articles associated with Morton, but as they are not linked to from any were & they are all 'bad' copies (They have the internal links missing and the formating is all messed up with TOC & heading badly formed etc) I have deleted tham as it takes ages to sort them out, Its easier to do them again. To copy pages they should be done in edit mode (and proably with the RTE switched to source if you are using it) so all the 'wikimarkup is copied. Co. is OK in a name generally as it more sense than Morton Tractor. Reliable is to ambiguous atitle & Morton is probalby best becoming a disambiguation page with links to all pages called morton xxx and to SS Morton see - wikipedia:disambiguation for info. I have restructure some of them abit as an example, with links to related pages. Create draft pages at [[user:Edrob/draft page name]] and move/copy them when finished to there proper page name. It stops them appearing in the new article list & count till they have 'usefull content' Note Moving pages retains edit history, copying & pasting loses it.

Fascinating bits of history some of these firms have with so many name changes, Documenting it with out too much duplication but linked with as summary is triky, but wikis ability to link articles is its stength, the loose structure can be a problem as well. Generally we wikilink the related company names generally on first use in an article & model names to help navigation. Cheers (dont worry about too much I'll wikify them, its easier tahan writing content) - BulldozerD11 13:22, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ed replied to your message at my talk page as a message left by User:Daniel Christensenafter yours had some related points - sorry for delay, real life intervened - BulldozerD11 23:03, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Re:International Trucks Edit

Hi Ed looks a fair size article you have there. Best way is to Copy and Paste it over the redirect in the International Trucks article as it will 'loose' all the page moves then from the history & still be recored as written by you if you do it, just add a edit summary "copied from user space draft" the original 'draft' can then stay in your space.

A few comments; The model numbers all need links in the form [[International 'model 1234'|Model 1234]] were 'model 1234' is what you have in the table, as it will get very confusing latter as it could be by any maker, the 'Pipe' symbol | is used to allow the displayed text to differ from the true link so you do not have a table or list of great long names repeated. Depending on the 'correct or common' usage International could listed as IH, IHC, International Harvester, or International Harvester Co. etc. with the tractors i started with IH B250 etc but then redirected to the longer International B250. There could be clashes with some truck & tractor models. On models with lots of small / related models Massey Ferguson 100 series etc. is the way to go with a group article for the related models in a series, as it can contain more info than the summary in the 'history article but saves creating 10 pages with identical info till there is more to add, i.e at least a photo or two of the individual model. {{main|link to series/range article}} is used below the section heading.

Some of the facts would benefit from using 'inline refs' <ref>add the ref info in here</ref>, this then appears in the 'References / sources' section with [1] numbers automatically linked & updated when more added. The more sophisticated {{Cite book}} etc can also be used, as per wikipedia.

More internal wiki links in the text i.e. the truck model / range numbers and items like engine numbers (for future articles & to ease listing them for a 'list of IH engines').

A few photos, even if used in another article already.

Links to other web sites with photos, or information. In the UK we have a web site with 1000s of classic commercial vehicle photos on it (but little technical info) so were i dont have photos i sometimes link to that.

Dont take this a criticisms, its just a few constructive points to building articles in the long term (most of mine need a lot of improvement / expansion, as i went for breath of coverage not depth initially & made the mistake when i copied articles of stripping too many links and refs out). Some dont like red links, were as i see them as signposts to potential articles for others to add.

Wiki Articles are NEVER complete, they may get too big in a section and need splitting, but its just like having a new chapter in a book when its on its second edition for recent changes, new info. - BulldozerD11 11:12, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Image creation attribution Edit

Hi Ed the {{Cc-by-sa-3.0}} takes an unnamed 'variable' and displays it as Attribution:name supplied within the template. e.g {{Cc-by-sa-3.0|Ed Roberts}} displays a second line that says "Attribution:Ed Roberts" below the std text msg & links.

Id forgotten it had it and was going to add something similar to the template, unfortunately I dont know of a way of getting the upload template to add it automatically yet. There is some discussions at Wikia Central about one of the 'new' upload features used to create galleries being updated as it currently has no way of naming files or even licensing them which is causing concern with some of 'us' users, as it was effectively a backward step. So a new version has been requested, so perhaps a few other updates could be included (with luck) - BulldozerD11 23:29, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ed - Are the Hays truck museum happy for other sites to reuse the images under the CC by Sa 3.0 license or are they just granting permission to use them on here (just to clarify for the record) ? We can create a custom template for licensing their images, it will just need adding manually to the image pages at the moment in place / in addition to one of the existing ones. - BulldozerD11 01:45, May 26, 2010 (UTC)


EdRob's Reply & my new reply moved here for continuity.

I spent a lot of time reading all about the licensing and don't thing I completely understand it yet.
Yes its a complex issue, Text is all under CC by SA now (was GFDL originally but Wikia migrated to the Creative Commons one after WP switched) - Wikipedia:Copyright is a reasonable starting point for general overview & links to other related info on copyright issues (but not definitive). - I'm no authority on it but am trying to be 'correct' as i dont like the 'if its on the web its free to use' mentality used by some wikis and web sites. I personally would like credit for my images used on other sites taken from this one, but it is not realistic to enforce.
As Wikia policy is that Individual users are responsible for the images they upload being corectly taged, but communities set there own policies, within Wikia rules & police them I tried to set/define a clear policy from the start, to a complex problem. Mainly based on Wikipedias (as thats were my experience was first, and Wikia policy is based on). But they dont allow restricted licenses were as individual Wikia sites can. A lot of wiki sites are based around TV shows and games so technically all images are copyright of the creators. Some use fair use on everything, but are stretching it rather far in my view, but if the copyright owner tolerates it then they are OK (A lot of these companies probably dont whant to alienate fans by being to heavy on re use on fanzines as its promotional to ther 'brand'). Here is a interesting bit on US published works on Wikimedia Commons -US licensing
I would like for the Hays museum to be able to grant permission to use a few photos for this wiki only and retain the copyright to use them in our own publications.
There are a raft of variation of the Creative Commons templates with variations of commercial & other for profit & derivative use restrictions. See - CC by NC
If there is a custom template that could say that, great. Hays Museum guidelines don't permit archive materials to be used for profit (as in a book) without prior permission but we do sometimes share photos for none-profit use.
We can create a customised version specific for the Hays images. Some photo archives are submitting images to Wikimedia Commons, but commons does not accept Non commercial restritcions. Under Wikias rules I believe we can on here, as each image is its own entity anybody reusing an article should treat the images separately to the text. Note owning the photo is not owning the copyright. an a lot of the early the copyright could have expired, depending when first published & when / if the author died/is dead. Using a small image and marking it may be an option but it will be more work for you. (i've not realy looked at the actual images you have uploaded 'real' sizes, its just a thought) my photos are taken with the camera set to its lowest resolution / image size to reduce file sizes, but they are still quite big. Note the Wiki hosting service Wikia could be classed as a 'for Profit' organisation, as it is seperate from the Wikimedia Foundation that runs Wikipedia and Media Wiki & Wikia Commons etc.
I'm on the board of directors of the museum and share operation of the archives, so I think I can grant permission for use of some photos. Edrob 01:10, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Dont think i'm been OTT I would very much like images on here but I dont want problems later for the site, the Museum or you later when/if they appear else were.
Old Brochures are covered by a Brochure option & Company Logos have a special version of the "Fair Use" adapted from the wikipedia tag template (& usage rational). Basically they acknowledge ownership (often the companies are defunct anyway, so who now has the rights, but the original image was published for publicity so was freely reproduced any way & we are using it to discuss the product as a new article or magazine would ).
If you think any of the policy doc's or pages I've created or ambiguous or Wrong then open a discussion on the talk page related to the article for specific issues and here or my talk page for a general discussion. I would like to update the simple upload box to make adding extra info easier but it is part of the wikia sysyem. The upload image link on the left in the 'toolbox' bit is better, as the summary section can be used to insert custom templates & backlinks to web sites.
Sorry if this rambles on as I've been writing it in bits all morning (day), so keep adding bits as I think of them / re read & write bits after more reasearch. - BulldozerD11 16:19, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

International truck modelsEdit

Hi ed there are some basic articles on wikipedia on IH models, I've copied a couple of them as a start. (both are poor but have the basic layout & some info as a start to build on)

I've added the {{Infobox Truck}} template to the International F Truck article as a sample, but it needs the code updating and new parameters (varibles) adding & the order adjusting. It may be worth making it use the {{Infobox automobile}} terms as much as possible for easy updating of some existing articles. List the extra Lables/data required at Template talk:Infobox Truck with any headings & then i can update it & the input list to copy & paste in to articles. - BulldozerD11 01:45, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Great work Edit

Hi Ed great work with all the articles on International Trucks. I've 'wikified' a couple of them - that is add links to other connected articles (even if non existant yet), Add a lead section (so that the Table of contents appears near top of page below main body of text), add a preservation section, so known surviving examples seen at shows or museums can be listed & possibly have there own article (or more photos), add other links to see also, fix the external links [htttp://www.webadres.com www.webadress.com] - description/page link. Less relevant ones can go in the see also e.g Heidrick Ag History Center, but if they have an example then it would go in the "Preservation" section, with a breif details of their truck.

Add the {{International Truck}} navbox (needs redoing as ex wikipedia & includes tractors which have there own. (its far easier to add them when creating the article than opening hundreds of articles later to add them). But its a good example of using sub groups to break it up (some of the other early ones need a rewrite to split tmem more when i get round to it, using sub groups). The list probably needs to be split by eras & model ranges + IHC, IH, NI main sections. (and hiding the 'International' name by using [[International DF-405|DF405]]) They get abit tediouse so are best done in stages.

Add categories:- The truck model, date introduced and discontinued, (could add a catagory for the plant built in )?, Cab / chassis configuration etc (these could be built into the infobox)

Infobox
I have rebuilt
Image needed LHB
{{{caption}}}
Model Details
Manufacturer [[{{{manufacturer}}}]]
Introduced date {{{introduced_date}}}
Discontinued date {{{discontinued_date}}}
Preceding model {{{pre_model}}}
Superseded by {{{super_model}}}
Production locations {{{factory}}}
No built {{{no_built}}}
Capacity tons (nominal) {{{loadcapacity}}}
GVW lb./kg. {{{gvw}}}
GCW lb/kg {{{gcw}}}
Variants (related models) {{{variants}}}
Engine data
Engine make {{{engine_make}}}
Model {{{engine_model}}}
Fuel type (option) {{{fuel}}}
Power HP @ rpm {{{power_hp}}}
Power kW @ rpm {{{power_kw}}}
Cylinders {{{cylinder_no}}}
Displacement
ci / Ltr
{{{displacement}}}
{{{cooling}}}
Transmission
Gearbox make {{{gearbox_make}}}
Gearbox type {{{gearbox_type}}}
Gears (forward speeds) {{{gears_no}}}
Gears (reverse) {{{gears_no_reverse}}}
Axle no. (driven) {{{axle_no}}} ({{{drive_axle}}})
Drive type {{{drivetype}}}
Tires - standard (optional) {{{tire_size}}}
Suspension {{{suspension}}}
Brake type {{{braketype}}}
Other data
Shipping weight {{{shipping_weight}}}
Cost new (Year) {{{costnew}}}
Notes {{{notes}}}
Web Site {{{website}}}
{{{below}}}
This box: view · talk
now based on your current version using the std core Infobox directly. could perhaps have a section for the Truck classifications used in the USA ? - Have i missed any thing out ? you can make this disappear by adding 'tl|' just inside the openig pair of double { brackets before the name then its just a link, to the page. {{tl|Infobox Truck}} (in source edit mode if using the RTE).
Images names

I note you are naming images 'make' year' 'model' in some cases, this will reduce the chance of anyone finding images by looking for the logical 'make_model' (the picture "find" box does not like spaces and returns null unless a under score is used), just model can return a lot of results in some cases & the main wiki search is currently broken with 7 out of 10 times you get an error message unfortunately.

New articles

For these 'short' articles, just create them at the final page name, the earlier userspace suggestion was related to creating a draft version of a large article in stages, so I and others would leave it alone while a draft.

Great work there Ed you have added more articles in a fe days than I added all last month & probaly two. - BulldozerD11 20:43, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

International crawlersEdit

I went to 3 different shows this weekend and got a lot of crawler photos at one with a number of IH models from TD6 up to TD-25 & have a few 100 photos of IH tractors from a show last year with a marquee of 200+ IH tractors + crawlers in it to add yet. Trying to find a way of adding photos in a neat grouped table (the built in gallery functions is too small) without sizing every one individually. My book on IH GB is very poor on actual data, it jumps about, as more of a company history, if you have any info IH crawlers or tractors.

Can you identify the model of IHC truck in the photo I added at the top of the International Trucks page as it was not in the guide ad either event I have seen it at. A few more photos could go on the page adding then below the section headings in which the model features (just set to thumb, no size). - BulldozerD11 20:43, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Followed (watched) pagesEdit

BTW there is several options in your 'user:preferences' to watch all pages you create or edit, so you can see what has been updated, by other editors (usefull for spotting the vandals/test editors that add useless info or remove bits for no reason - sometimes accidentally) - BulldozerD11 20:43, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Templates Edit

To 'use' a infobox template (not create a new one) you copy the list of inputs and fill in after the = signs. this passes the info to the internal code visible in edit mode. the 'manufacture=' passes what you fill in after the = sign to the bit that says {{{manufacturer}}} inside the template page and visible when editing, or is visible in the example when displayed in some cases (not all). Navboxes (the blue tables of lists of links) and std messages are shown by just tying the name enclosed in double {} brackets, but some can have extra info sent to them by items like |text= or |date= or just |Edrob which then shows your name in the CC by SA template (when included with the double {} after the template name.

{{Infobox Truck
| title             = 
| image             = [[Image:Image_needed_LHB.png|250px]]
| caption           = 
| manufacturer      = add your data here
| introduced_date   = 2010
| discontinued_date = 1800
| pre_model         =
| super_model       =
| factory           =
| no_built          =
| loadcapacity      =
| gvw               =
| gcw               =
| variants          =
| engine_make       =
| engine_model      =
| fuel              =
| power             = <!-- For backward compatibility - use hp & kW instead  -->
| power_hp          =
| power_kw          =
| cylinder_no       =
| displacement      =
| cooling           =
| gearbox_make      =
| gearbox_type      =
| gears             = <!-- for backward compatibility were F & R on same line -->
| gears_no          =
| gears_no_reverse  =
| axle_no           =
| drive_axle        =
| axle_make         =
| drivetype         =
| tire_size         =
| suspension        =
| shipping_weight   =
| costnew           =
| notes             =
| website           =
| below             =
}}

Note: if the internal text of a template is changed every instance (page) it is used on changes. So many pages an be updated centrally with one change (but it can have problems as well). - BulldozerD11 21:40, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Re Your reply Edit

Templatetruck-model
My reply indented BulldozerD11

I like the Templatetruck-model and enclosed infobox. When using the infobox I can't change the title of the box. Sometimes I don't want it the same as the page. Also I can't get it to load an image. How about a line for brake type (mechanical, hydraulic, etc.)? Maybe right after suspension?

templatetruck-model is stared by adding {{Create truck-model|"new page name"}} to a list of models were The model name becomes the name of the page created by it.
I'll look at why heading will not change tomorrow (later today) (may be how i did the default option).
Image problem may be that its coded from one were it has no [ brackets used.
brakes can be added easily.

As for naming images, should I use the form: John_Deere_D_1941 or leave off the date? I might have more than one year for a model, for example unstyled and styled Ds. I have photos of American International Harvester wheel and crawler tractors from tractor shows, probably most models from late-teens through mid-50s.

Just add the date after the make model, i add reg nos & event seen at on a lot of mine so i can find them easier.
You have probably got some of the missing models, but main thing im missing is data. I will probably start some pages with a photo and a blank out line & add a 'tag' to stick them in a special category so they can be found later to update them. like {{stub}} does for vey short articles.

The old truck you added to the International Trucks page has the IHC badge instead of International script on the radiator so that makes it an IHC Auto Wagon, pre-1914. It appears to have a radiator so that would make it a water-cooled AW model from 1912-13. The air-cooled A and AA models looked almost identical but had the fuel tank in front instead of the radiator. We have a 1912 AW in the Hays Museum that still runs.Edrob 01:59, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'll re name it then as a IHC Auto Wagon - its a runner and looks very tidy. Seen it at 2 shows now, just it had no info with it. It can go in the IHC Auto Wagon article then.
Keep up the great additions your making. I'll try and fix the templates to work better but like designing a form it need a bit of adjustment to suit multiple cases, but they beat drawing up the page by hand every time and filling it in, if its pre printed in effect. some bits can be hidden by using <!-- "bit of unused text or a hidden note only seen during editing normally" --> as an example of another bit of wiki code. (To indent text like this add a : at the front of the first word of the paragraph / line of text). - BulldozerD11 02:35, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

IH and other dataEdit

Be great if you can fill some out then with spec sheet data. I had refrained from creating pages till i had a reasonable template (was getting RSI from typing & fed up with adding the same basic bits repeatedly). Can you see any major changes needed to the {{Infobox Tractor}} template ?

I also did not want to create loads of basically 'empty' stub pages early on. But I'am still trying to get a decent table / gallery template that works for me -the std wikia galley has been improved but has flaws (no liences adding function & No (re) naming the file with a sensible name on upload, both major flaws) and the huge shaded frames are very waste full with the fixed aspect ratio.

The list tables work reasonably well, with sight variations for different classes of vehicle, i was trying to get a code expert to create or point me to a way of adding a button to "add entry" but short of going to a more database version of wikia looks like too much trouble - (Copy, paste & fill in blanks works relativly easy). The PML (preserved Machine list) like {{PML Allchin}} tables are just a bit tricky for new editors to add to (and often they canot find the edit link (button), as they are on a separate page in a template for several reasons. I've tried to get a "create pml" link to work but failed yet, when fixed then they can be added to all vehicle model pages in the preservation section at initial article creation. (you may have seen some red links like Template:Pml 'vehicle model' on the pages).

- BulldozerD11 13:04, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

New articlesEdit

Hi Ed see you have been busy creating new articles. I've not had time to read them all yet, looks like I have a backlog building with the truck ones as well. I spent the weekend getting a few steam engines id not seen before down the other end of the country. Also seen were one of your US built International R series truck & and a few other US trucks in Military Vehicle livery, + a Cletrac Lend lease crawler with Blaw Knox bulldozer gear.

BTW the new tractor pages could do with some categories adding to them; [[Category:make model-no.]], [[Category:make-series]] if one of a distinct series of related models I'll adapt the template to add the year introduced and discontinued automatically, others could be the plow rating, and the horse power groups xx-belt hp and xx-drawbar hp, as new categories. I started some similar ones for the Steam engines to group them Category:4 nhp engines.

The serial number tables are a great bit of info when data is available to include. - Some brilliant additions your adding Ed thanks again - BulldozerD11 10:43, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ed just found this article you added Farmall tractor & quick clic on the 'special' link at the bottom of the page that says "what links here" takes you to this page here. At the moment only you, me and the odd lucky google searcher will find it. You may have notice in some of the other articles i added extra links to other models, such as the Superceded model and the predecessor model in the info box, as well as others in the mentioned in the text.
Put in plenty of links to model numbers(with the make prefixed), some important dates (used in reverse to create date related lists by looking what is attached to that date) and common terms e.g Power Take Off when first used on a page as they will eventually join up, even if no article yet (occasionally we get two similar ones from different links when i forget i created a page al ready, but they can be merged & redirected). Links to technical terms are to help 'novice' reader if they do not understand them. (easily created from a wikipedia page to save time, with some of the material trimmed out & a few links changed, or just a short dictionary style definitions).
I'm going to have to dig out all my old IH photos now to start filling the PML lists, once I finish updating some of the steam engine PML lists and show attendance lists that Im behind with from recent events.
People are reading your new articles - see some recent viewing figures scan down to 3200 ish (list includes images & other pages so is alot longer than the current article count) - BulldozerD11 22:38, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

IH tractor range Navbox update Edit

Hi Ed I realised that the early IHC tractors were missing from the template {{IH tractor range}} (the one that goes at the Bottom of the page, above manufacturers). I have now added a Titan, Mogul and IH Cub Cadet section to it. They are probably out of timeline order but generally in abd/ 123 order. The sections eventually need swapping round but for now i've added the new ones on the bottom.

ps. Newer knew they made so many Cub Cadet models, think i've only seen about 1/2 dozen tractors in total, But we have a fair few of the French built International / Farmall Cubs here at shows. - BulldozerD11 18:46, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Multiple refs Edit

Hi Ed I notice in a recent sn list you added a ref to every entry. This is probably a bit excessive, I moved them to the header (but they could go in the notes). I also adjusted the table to split the rows & put the Total at the bottom, which I think gives a neater version than it sitting in the notes header as I did initially. If you agree it looks neater we can update the template page.

Were articles have multiple references to the same book there is a way of cutting down the instances that it appears in the refs section, by using named refs - see wikipedia:Wikipedia:Citing_sources for info (I have only used it occasionally and forget how to do it properly, so will not try to explain it my self). But basically uses a short name(unique) to call the main reference deinition from later instances i.e <ref name=some title>the long ref description here</ref> to define it, the just a short <ref name=some title>page 123</ref> for other instances. Alternativly the more complex CITE templates {{Cite book}}, {{Cite journal}} {{Cite press release}}, {{Cite web}} that are also used on wikipedia by some editors (and are similar to std formats used in publications). I haven't learnt to use them but added them for compatibility as some imported articles used them (and it allows easier upgrading as we grow).

PS. the template link in the preserved section should be {{PML {{subst:PAGENAME}}}} it was left faulty as i could not get it to create it properly when the page is created from the template (is stuck the wrong page (name) in the title). & similarly with the range template were it needs to be {{IH tractor range}} on International pages in place of the 'place holder' {{'Manufactures name' range}}. My template creating skills are not up to the level needed to get thr pages as envisaged but be universal enough or multiple uses. I keep looking for inspiration on other wiki's but transferring the ideas is not as simple as first appears & good documentation / help is a bit hard to find for most of them.

- Thanks Ed - Great work with adding all the new Cub articles. When you look at the number of models each manufacturer has the potential size of the wiki is Huge, if we had just one 'enthusiast on each make contributing a few pages a week. - BulldozerD11 11:15, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Serial numbers records are notoriously unreliable. some UK makers whent up in odd multiples like 3 and then jumped them every so often. I think with the serial numbers if we just list were we got them from in general anybody can look at the source info, It shows its not just something we 'made' up. any oddities can be explained in the notes column or as you have don by a note below them I think that looks quite good, as it explains the table. Manufacturers liked to make the sales figurers look good on the books like today in the UK they 'pre' register loads of cars, then they sit in a yard or field till sold, or put out on hire & then sold of as 'used'. The Old steam engine builders sometimes renumbered engines for shows that were built years before & then gave them a make over for the show stand !!
With the refs it was mainly the table getting a bit full of the links. I one book gives staring nos place it in the col header, and if another gives the production figures put that in the no built col header. In the main article text generally to reduce duplicates i add the page no. More is probably better than none for facts and figures which come from obscure sources or differ from the commonly quoted history of a model or company. Dont worry too much about it, as some articles have no real sources at all as they are manily based on other then a few works written around a photo. A lot of the early pages when i look back need updating,as i had not created the infobox then or it was a very basic one at that time. Getting a decent timeline for some makes a problem as the bboks jump about, or the manufacturers made loads of changes. Your doing a great job Ed sorting out the IH models systematically, working through the list. We could do with a JD fan to fix the List of John Deere tractors I started sorting it original when on wikipedia as its a mix of a list and text (originally added by people partially to meet wikipedias preference for 'prose' i think ) I started breaking it into sections like you did with International Trucks sumarising the model ranges/ series.
Been out to more shows the last two days so got another 1100 photos to sort through and add the real vintage pre war tractor models & the ones i have tables for - BulldozerD11 00:05, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

International TD-24 Edit

Hi Ed your doing great with the crawler models, but i noticed on this one the history text was 'recyled' as the model numbers were for wrong models, you has updated the infobox and the spec but missed the history text.

I keep adding extra links to any other makes / models discussed in the text, and adding the categories to most of the article's but i may have missed some. Each model has its own category for the sub-articles on individual machines to go into when added. The PML tables to reduce the number can be shared when serial numbers are common to a group (series) of derivative models with a common number sequence (and if 'too many' machines get added they can be split then).

Were there are several related models based on one main one I think a [[Make model series]] article with the variants summarised can be create and used in the Navbox {{IH tractor range}} instead of adding all the models. (some MF model ranges have similar pages).

Are you having problems uploading photos as over the last few days they are not uploading or not showing up for me when i try to add images. ?

Great work getting the site to 3500 articles Ed You must have added a large proportion of the last 500 pages with all the IH articles. - BulldozerD11 01:35, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

We all miss bits when trying to duplicate article without creating them from scratch. Some of the early stuff i did is missing allsorts of bits. My biggest mix up is cats and links with different but similar spellings. Different eyes see different stuff as often you read whaat you think you see not what you really see !!
We have too many exhibits now at some shows and as i'm covering Steam, tractors, plant and commercials + some cars if interesting. I take several shots of each 3/4 front, 3/4 rear, front and side if possible and some details + try to get reg no and/or serial number, + any info sheet or board displayed with the vehicle as show guides are often lacking in info & trying to mach them up & add notes to guide is harder than taking a couple of extra shots. Still find somebody has got in the shot on some. A lot of UK tractors dont have a number plate on front so have to do front and back in line up as minimum as i whant to identify the individual vehicle for the show lists and owners collections.
See Massey Ferguson 6200 series with the IH models to act more as a dismabig page when petrol, diesel, orchard,High clearance and rowcrop etc version exist of basically the same tractor.
Trouble is now i have that many i cannot decide what to add were, as they need to go in several places. The IH TD 14 came from an event with 80 crawlers, 40 JD tractors, 140 other tractors, 20 horticultural, 30 steam engines, 20 minatures, 60 mortorcycles, 65 commercial + the interesting ones bringing exhibits , 100+ cars, and a load of other stuff like the working area to get a few inaction shot at etc. resulting in 1094 photos & i missed quite a few as some disappear after the parades. But im probably trying to get too many of them. The waiting for people to shift kills me most as end up with cramp from gripping camera, holding guide and back pack in a twisred position while waiting. - BulldozerD11 03:03, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
re - IH T-X Series articles,
I think was probably a bit unclear with my above comment / suggestion to have a series article were there were several models based on one basic design.
  • I was thinking more of the series (for example) containing a summary time line history and a list of links all the related models. e.g International T-5, International TD-5 etc. Were the Serial nos. list si shared it could be incorporated as well as the PML list in addition to being in the model articles. a see also and refs + external links also incorporated so the page stands on its own but for more detailed info people go to the individual models for the spec & more history and photos.
  • The individual articles contain the ,main history for each model, with sn table and PML link/table etc as before (originally done)with gallrty section for photos / images and just add a link in the intro that relates to the series for all the related models. (not transfering it all to the Series article).
  • IH Model list has the Series and all the main sub models (indented below it)
  • Navbox - the red topped {{IH tractor range}} template has the link for each series in the crawler section (instead of every single model, T, TD, Orchard, High clearance etc).
Sorry I should have explained it clearer as the linked individual MF reactor model articles are not as well developed as your Individual IH model articles are, (i was just using the MF xyz series articles as the example incorporating a list of related models).
BTW: Looks like you and Scoty have been busy over the weekend adding more articles while i've been getting more photos of early tractors to add !!
- BulldozerD11 17:20, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Turning circle Edit

Yes its one of those ambiguous terms that different people define differently. I'd say it should definitely be a full circle diameter, not radius. But is it the inner circle or the circle within which a vehicle will turn within. ie if 2 building are 20ft apart a tractor with a 19'6" turning circle would clear. Was looking for an example with a diagram but canot find one.

Some specsheets used to quote a un-braked and braked value using the independent brakes to lock one wheel.

BTW like the comparison tables - great addition to pages.

PS dont forget the UK/Euro versions of the International 444 and similar models were fully built at Doncaster / Bradford for the home market, but supplied as a skid units, - without engine for US market in a reverse of the US/canadian built models supplied to the UK in the 30's - Fordson's without wheels and Massey-Harris without engines and wheels. Were the wheels a local US sourced item on the British built IH models sold in the US as well as the gas engines ?

- BulldozerD11 10:15, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Wikia Changes Edit

I just noticed the comments at the top of the opening page. I haven't followed the blogs so this was the first I've heard of the upcoming changes. I don't want to write more articles if they will just go to waste. Are you and other admins really considering giving up on the tractor wiki?Edrob 03:12, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ed I've personally currently stopped adding new articles, as I dont like the way Wikia have significantly changed (when it goes live) the look and the way the site operates, against protest from a lot of editors. This change could involve having to reformat alot of the articles as i do not think the PML tables and the Info boxes will sit well under the new format.

I put the notice up and posted some blogs (another feature i'm not a fan of but have used occasionally since it was introduced for 'publicity' of the wiki). see the Wikia Staff Blogs for some details on wikias changes.

I'm looking at alternatives, to set up a new version on another host but Wikia is by far the biggest provider and when i originally founded the site chose them as they offered compatibility with wikipedia, support, instant set up, open editing so others could join in like yourself and Scoty and a few others who have contributed a number of articles at times. A number od upgrades by Wikia have been good along with features tha are better than wikipedia, such as add category, predictive links, galleries ( to a degree) etc. but others are not such as blogs, article comments (replaing talk pages on new wikis), some of the 'wigets' stopping workings - the items below the side menu such as refersl from other sites, other wikis visited, adding annoying adds for other wikis (tolerated but anoying when the same ones keep coming up). The new look replaces the left side with a bigger block of annoying bits on the Right and drops all the navigation links.The attributing of various thing to editors prominently more in the model of a social networking site is unnecessary and wrong in the case of images that are copied from elseware. A earlier feature tha anoyed som older editors was prominently showing how many edirs they had made in gigantic text at the to of the users page, like forms show edit counts and 'idiots' just post rubbish to climb the top editors list. they have recently inrodueced other similar stupid (in my opinion) ideas of badges for more edits etc. Some changes were optional (hence you may not have sen them) but the new rules and look make alot of the ideas madatory and future ones wil not be optional or able to be turned off site wide. Tus making me very reluctant to carry on as the Wegde of forced changes is getting bigger, and so harder to acksept.

The site here will not close if I leave, so other users can take it over. I had made User:Scoty6776 an admin a bit back so he could delete 'bad and spam' pages. I do not know what he is thinking of doing yet. I had been following developments at wikia central as i had helped out there on the Help-Forum with answering some users problems and to learn handy tips, from some of the experts in customising Mediawiki, after looking forhelp after the last lot of big changes added annoying features such as the help:Rich text editor which messed up tables and info boxes initially.

I'm looking at ways of creating a new site, possibly with a revised format but the effort is huge (but more practical long term than the updating of every article here to such the repeated 'upgrades').

  1. I could start on another wiki farm (host) tomorrow but am worried the same could then happen a couple of years down the line.
  2. Recreate the site on a new domain name, as a non editable site. (id have to add all content, but it could be submited by e-mail)
  3. recreate the site on a new domain name, and restrict editing to selected editors such as your self. saves having to deal with the spam pages and rubbish added by most IP editors
  4. Create a new open wiki.
  5. Find a cooperate sponser to fund / host the site
  6. Host one on a server farm but get adds to pay for it
  7. Go back to editing wiki pedia and put up with ther restrictions so a lot of the stuff i was adding would not be acceptable
  8. just publish my photos on photobucket etc, or on Forums without creating an encyclopedia type site with straucture info.
  9. carry on here and 'live' with the restrictions and changes
  10. give up ' wasting my time' on the net and find a new hobby
  11.  ?

Loads of options but which to do ?

The community here is very small as you are currently the 3rd biggest contributor and we have only really had about a dozen editor who have added content to more than the odd article.

Your original question of whether to carry on adding material is upto you, I donot 'own' the tractor wiki site as such, i just created the 'brand' and the initial layout / idea. It (this project) has grown from just tractors and construction plant to cover a wider range of related material. Do i create a new 'brand' or stick with 'Tractor Wiki' is one question. As material is published under the CC by SA license other sites can copy it freely (as long as it is attributed to here and in the case of original photos to me/ you or who ever created it). The content on here should stay up and active even if i leave and create a clone (some sites already clone some of the pages and some of my wikipedia commons photos are on many sites), as Wikia do not generally close down Wikis completely. Many early pages started as copies of wikipedi pages anyway, but i rearranged them and expanded them with new material and Scoty added alot of list of tractor models which (some wikipedia editors dont like in there articles).

I wish we had More editors like you Ed as you are creating a great series of article methodical on one make. Part of the reason for starting the project was to get similar people with a interest in one make/machine type to contribute to an all makes and models site, rather that having lots of one person one make sites on the web, but in some ways i have failed as alot prefer to just add bits of info in an unstructured way on forums.

I'm in a dilemma my self so cannot really advise you as to the best path to take, but any new pages can be copied to a new site but they also make this site bigger (hence me stopping adding new images and pages at the moment). It is possible to create pages in Notepad or a text editor (not Word and its complex doc format) then just Copy & Paste them into a new wiki page if they are done using wikitext mark up for the formatting, such as; == [[]] <ref></ref> [[Category:]] {{ {| and | etc.- BulldozerD11 15:38, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Tractor Wiki MKIIEdit

Any suggestions for a revised format, additional subjects or changes to the overall structure for a new version of Tractor Wiki are welcome. Alternative names also considered, to appeal to a wider audience & attract more hits on the search engines. - BulldozerD11 15:38, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

comment on future options Edit

I'm still looking at options, as the prospect of updating 1000's of pages on here to suit the new layout does not appeal, but also the alternative of re-editing them onto anew site is as bad. Have you seen the new Wikia look yet in action on here ? BTW you can find me via the UK version of yahoo as tractorwiki. I'm not rushing into leaving yet but am now waiting to see if they solve some of the complaints from the community about the new look and the changes to how things are done and look. Wikia have blocked some of the more 'rebellious' users who had moved some sites to other hosts. Unfortunately striking (not adding new content) and threatening to leave are the only protests that we (users) can make when staff apear not to be listening to our earlier comments about the proposals. I can fully understand you directing your efforts back to the museum project due to the uncertainty here. I posted info of the problems with wikia as it is only fair to inform the small community on here, rather than just appear to have disappeared, and so they can make a informed choice as to what to when the site changed its look and why the look/layout had suddenly changed. - BulldozerD11 23:43, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

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